Got an interesting guestbook message that might be fun to talk about. In the interest of eliminating redundancy I deleted it from the guestbook, but am quoting it in full below:
"From: griaule again
Posted: 7:50PM, August 31st, 2005
I am some techno experimental wacko unstructured new wave band. I hate Music thats catchy,groovy,hooky. I play what I like, I like what we play. All of me totally gets into that whole space cadet flowy non-melodic non-structured non-music thing. I grew up listening to the radio, I certainly don't wanna hear it now. Because I've grown up since listening to the radio. I've heard all the lame songs before. I desire cerebral layers of interesting sound. The kind of soundscape one can explore again and again, always hearing something new in the same 5 minute composition. I'm glad you don't JUST play covers. We can listen to Lynrd Skynrd at home, or on the radio. I hope you enjoy what you do-as it seems you do indeed. Not that I'm interested in hearing it. i just don't feel you're bringing anything new to the table.
And my off the cuff response (for you all know I'm inclined that way) :
"If you're not interested, why did you post? And why did you read the bio? Oh yeah, that's right you want traffic. You're intellectual flowiness is suffering and agonizing for propaganda and commercialization. You want your web address plastered all over the internet to get you randomized clicktraffic that you can't get by merit alone. Easy to see. Here's a simple formula: If you're not interested in this site, stay off this site. And while you're at it, stop worrying about what everyone else is bringing to the table. Perhaps instead of just sitting at your little computer and pretending you're a musician, you'd then be able to contribute someting useful. Or at least moderately interesting."
I try so hard to be nice. But then there are self-contradicting hypocritical idiots.
I am going to have to agree with God. This assbag probably pops shrooms and sings in the shower. I bet his only self proclaimed hit is " Sounds of Microsoft Errors". If your the "techno experimental wacko unstructured new wave space cadet flowy non-meloic non-structured non-music" type, you have to ask yourself something. What am I doing on an Indi-Rock website?? This guy is a non-poser.
wow this guy IS an assbag!! no wait, he's me! really though, don't you ever get tired of the same drum, guitar , bass crap? wait wait, let me go listen to yr music to remember why i posted this in the first place....
ok ok i had to go back and hear it to know what i was talking about. actually th music was nt too horrible.. till the vocals hit. OMG!! fhdfjkdhf-ing quit trying to sound like a lame-ass eddie vedder/ alice in chains / whatever. you're no good at it, firstly and secondly, they already do it better. this from my listen of "don't kill the spider" dont kill my ears !!!
but obviously i AM here just to promote my own talentless sh$t. my new ep "time flies when you're shaving nuns" but as for why i'm doing it on YOUR site? well, frankly that matters none at all. the point is the google bomb. obviously nobody who is interested in YOUR music is going to be lusting after MINE. this is a quantity issue. and an experiment really. google the phrase "time flies when you're shaving nuns" and it comes up with my site: www.[LINK DELETED] as the top result. why? because i go on message boards (like yours) and enter that phrase along with the link. (look up google bombing on wikipedia.com to understand why this works) and of course, also because its not the most common phrase ever.
so yes, really i am just using you and your message board for my own self satisfying goals. i could care less about your sorry ass average sounding bar band, but i do at least try not to make it a total spam parade; i actually look at your site for a minute before i leave my comment, so that at least my comment has something to do with your site. and if i really find something interesting (rarely) i'll say so. but i try to at least be relevant.
so why am i back here again?
well, in my campaign to stay the top search result for the aforementioned phrase, i like to check in on the google search results. and today your site just happened to be number 2!
so when i saw you all were talking about me i thought i'd see who the heck you were. after which point i remembered who the heck you were. and here i am. slightly drunk.
and just you sorry bar bands better remember.
noise is rising. the avant garde crap you despise today will be top 40 next week! or maybe top 52 anyway. at least by 2024. that s my prediction. because frankly im sick of hearing boy meets girl type crap music. in fact im just sick of hearing music! its repetetive and BORING!! seriously, how can some of these drummers stand themselves playing the same 4 beats over and over and over and oevera ndeover aover oadndever. i would rather dance to dying yaks!. actually, come to think of it i really would rather dance to dying yaks... or at least a dead cow maybe. i should go tape a contact mike to a cow and tip it over, that could be GOLD!!! still, though as i said good luck enjoying whatever it is you are trying to accomplish, much beer to you in doing it, wether i think you suck or not, and likewise of course im sure, hope at least i may have given you an idea or 1.
ps, did i remember to put in the link to my soundclick page? oh, well, i'm sure ones enough anyway.
sorry, know i'm still going on again, but just wanted to clear up some confusion real quick:
1: im on an indie rock site because i dont care where i'm posting, much as you guessed, i've also posted on church sites, whatever, where ever, just to play the google game(read above). i'm on a crusade.
2 i do not eat shrooms. actually i just drink beer and cigarettes. though i favour microbrews, specifically IPAs and Barleywines in the former. no pot, it just makes me paranoid.
3 i do not sing in the shower. i usually do not sing at all. i have more sense than that. not that anything i do would really call for much singing. but my voice sounds like dick.
4. i thank you for keeping my post alive here, and respect you for posting my opinion.ah, now i see you killed the homepage link. yeah i can understand that, you'll probably kill the last link i left also. although, i think it only fair to show your users what musical(or non)angle i actually represent, i promise i will try to remember not to try posting the link again. it is your site after all, and you ultimately have the power to delete me.
5.i don't appear to have a fifth point, i should go find that fifth of rum instead.
In spite of all the hurled insults, I agree with you, the nuns phrase experiment is somewhat interesting. Not much practical use on the marketing front, of course, unless someone's really into shaving nuns the way you seem to be. But hey if you wanna go for the shorn nuns crowd, be my guest.... What would be really intersting, however, is if phlux.net actually began coming up as number 1 in the rankings thanks to the continued activity of THIS POST! I doubt that'll actually happen, but you never know... So I guess, in spite of all the hurled insults, I seem to remember a few from my side of the fence making their mark (hence the return visit, apparently), I'm game for letting these posts stand just to see how it plays out. Feel free to come back and check in with us any time to let us know about the theoretical experiment in cyberland, and of course the theoretical music too (but you're right about the links, don't bother). One point I would like to address: You wondered how some people can bear to listen to music with drums, bass, and guitar... Well, most people call them balls, my friend.
Wow. So, I'm sitting here at work, trying not to laugh out loud while reading these. I do feel the need to leave a comment though.
Griaule, I'm not really sure where to begin. How about I start with your opinion on music......non-music.......whatever. Anyway, I think it's absolutely fantastic that you play what you like and like what you play. Congratulations. And you are completely entitled to "hate music that's catchy, groovy, hooky." I'm still trying to figure out exactly what that has to do with your google bomb about shaving nuns.
I understand what you are doing, and that, for you, it is simply a "quantity issue." There must be a lot of time and effort that goes into being the top search result for "time flies when you're shaving nuns." Too bad that the majority of the people googling shaved nuns are probably just looking for porn.
Regardless of that, if you feel the need to google bomb the sites of other musicians..........who also play what they like and like what they play.................why do you feel the need to insult their music at the same time? Is that really necessary? Now, I'm not sure just how drunk you were while you were reading some of the responses. Maybe the words all jumbled together and you misunderstood what you read, but at no point in time did anyone say that they despised your "avant garde crap." Those were your words. The only one throwing out their musical opinions is you.
I'm just curious. If you're "not interested in hearing" Phlux, then how do you know what they're bringing to the table? What are you bringing to the table? I could be wrong, but I'm going to assume it isn't much. Obviously, there aren't many people that are that interested in your music or your site. If there were, you wouldn't have to spend so much time google bombing other sites and insulting their music.........music that you can't be bothered to listen to anyway.
Maybe if you spent more time creating music........or non-music.........and less time insulting others, you wouldn't have to google bomb to make the top search results.
okokok, in response to clint philips' latest reply: i think its the fourth paragraph? when i speak of my self as "space cadet flowy non-melodic non-structured music thing" or whatever it was i posted earlier (too drunk to look up) i was taking a line directly from the website. you say no one here is saying "that they despised your "avant garde crap." no not on this bbs, i was referring back to this page: http://www.phlux.net/about.html on which they make an off-handed comment about what phlux is Not. i admit, their phrasing is not exactly an outright attack or anything. though the opinion of such "music" or "non-music" seems fairly clear. still, it must be said, no one from the phlux camp has been so obnoxious (as i have) to go on my sound click page and disparage MY music. clearly i am pushing my own agenda here, though at this point i am beyond that; now i am involved in an argument which i find more interesting than mere propaganda.
where the heck was i? oh yeah i was almost at the end of this bottle of cheap whiskey.
um, hold on a sec.
ok , as far as not being interested in hearing phlux. i hate to just go in and spam people with my own links without at least having the decency of looking at their site for a few minutes.it would logically be unfair of me to comment on what they bring to the table or for that matter to comment at all on their site without at least listening to their music for a few mins first.
speaking of which i am listening now to "undertow" and i gotta say, you guys need a better sound engineer. vocals are up way too frxking loud. though in some bizarre way i actually like it that way. pegging my meters when you do the dirty screaming part. its harsh, i like that. i'd be hapy to help you mix yr sound if you want, since thats mostly what i do any way is mix sound.
sorry, i see now yr name is clint phipps npot philips. and btw the lyrics you've written are not horrible. ah, but now i see its the erica person i am actually referring to. and apparentlt i've even spelled my own name wrong.
uh, where was i going?
ok as far as my not bringing much, and having to resort to these tactics to promote mysellf. obviously i have a better understanding of the nature of the internet than you. the internet is like a vast arena of screaming people. if you just post your material and leave it at that, then no one will ever see it. you must find some way to stand out among the millions of other voices. this is just my way of standing up, by climbing on your shoulders. asimov said something like we are only great bc we stand on the shoulders of giants. btw, now i am listening to the acoustic alien gleams, its pretty decent, the vocals sound a lot better than the other stuff i've heard. though still its very familiar like ive heard this crap before. as i was saying, regardless of what talent i may or may not have, promotion is still key to getting my stuff heard. there IS an audience for noise music out there, its just a matter of reaching them through the barrage of mainstream media. phlux themselves must understand some part of this else i'd 've never heard of them right? not that theyre using the same tactics iam, i just don't have any money to spread around so im using guerilla tactics. just like when i mix my compositions into porn videos for distro on ares.
and as far as spending more time making music than promoting it. well, i spend plenty of time creating my artwork. but again, what matter how great my work if no one knows it exists? and likewise what does it matter how many people hear my sound, if none of them like it?
the fact is this: most people are content to listen to the same 3 chord rock they're familiar with. even most of the "indy" fans who crave a little bit more aren't really looking for anything too foreign. My audience is out there however, it's mostly comprised of people who never knew "noise" existed. those scattered few who would be fascinated by something new if only they knew it existed. and they come from all walks of life. A lot of them are not actively searching for my sound simply because they would not know what to look for. so i have to go looking for them. and here i am.
really this whole battle if it may be called such is kind of silly. it would be like mozart arguing with garth brooks over whose music sucks. we are on totally different wavelengths and comparing my noise to your music is like determining wether a toaster or a blender are better at sewing.
i don't know what i waws going to say next but this is where i'm apparentlty cloes to passing out...
i am verbose aren't i?
just wanted to mention that i am trying to honor yr desire by not posting my links here again, though i feel its a bit silly to take away your website users' right to examinemy material. still, if they're really and truly interested they can figout how to find it, fair enough. and as for the above mentioned phrase, and why i want to be listed first on google for it. well, its the name of my forthcoming EP. and if people happen upon it while looking for porn, thats cool. like i said, it mainly an experiment, which seemed to work quite easily, only afew little posts like the above and i made it to the number one position. granted, its easy enough to be first with a rather obscure phrase, but it lays the groundwork for whatever i plan to do next. really though, you should post the links to my page, its not as if yr going to lose any of your fans to me, and i believe it would help your arguments against me just for them to hear how bad my music really is. still, as i said i trust your fans are intelligent enough to find it for themselves if they wish.
Well, I’ll give you this, Graiule: You’ve got more brains than I originally gave you credit for. And you’re persistent. You score two points in your ‘battle,” if you prefer to think of it as that. I was thinking of it as more of a friendly discussion regarding the propensity of people to just jump on a bandwagon and shout down the rest of the world. Loudest voice wins and all that. I certainly didn’t expect you to come back once, let alone twice, so props to you for that. I figured you’d be more like one of those jackasses who occasionally shows up and says, “U suk I rok fuckoff…” and leaves it at that due to some self-diagnosed ADD-style affliction. It’s nice to see I was wrong for once. (In spite of the speeling erours, but I attribute that to the whiskey, for which I share an affinity.)
This is just one of those instances where it matters not so much what you say, but how you say it. For instance, the difference between saying “I’m am not into flowy space cadet music.” (IE trance. That was the reference, not noise.) is NOT the same as saying, “I hate your music you fucking flowy space cadet fuck.” What can I say, one is intended to describe the kind of music that I play, and let everyone know that if they like trance, should go elsewhere, the other is intended to personally attack whoever likes trance- blunderbuss style. So to all those who misinterpreted it, should I apologize for your mistake? It is interesting to note that the bio has garnered much response, mostly positive, and has apparently had a lot more influence than I ever intended in writing it. Unfortunately, some people misinterpret it, some people misquote it, and some people just don’t read it all the way through. For instance, Graiule, if you’d read it all the way through (forgive me if you have, I’m willing to attribute missing this to the whisky too…) you’d have come across this part:
“See, we're music lovers. We love to listen to it and we love to write it. We can't identify with those who only want the old any more than we can identify with those who only want new. A strange combination of old and new make up the world. Walk down any main street and you'll see it.”
I’m not unwilling to listen to your music, I’m just put off by your fucking attitude. Or at least your initial attitude. It’s something you might want to take into account in future guerilla marketing. If you want to go onto a website of people who are there because they want to be there and talk shit about that which they like in hopes of getting some click traffic and your name out there, well go ahead, but doesn’t it seem a bit self destructive? I understand the macro scale “experiment,” but do you understand the micro scale? It’s one of those things, name recognition is one thing, but what you say matters as much as how many times you say it, or how loud.
So let’s put these tactics in perspective. I’m not taking “away [our] website users' right to examine [your] material,” I’m just using the internet as you are, redirecting traffic from your site to my site in some low level subtle way. Links among websites don’t go unnoticed. Hey, you started it. And if people on this site are interested in you beyond what you’re writing here (you seem pretty sure they wouldn’t be) they are totally free to look you up in the search engines. I’m not restricting access at all. I’m actually helping you by not deleting you; it’s the power of word of mouth and it was around long before some wacky technical google-bomb mind riot. Another thing: It actually works, too.
OK on to another topic. You’re right about the sound qualities of a lot of the songs you’ve been listening to. We admit it, it’s not the best. But I know you’re keen to the $$ aspects of the music business. We didn’t have a lot of money either, no Indy band does. We recorded most of those either live for free, or in a 10 hour session with a 10 hour mixing session for $100. And it was 6 years ago. So if you wanna dis that, hey cool, I’d like to see what you could come up with in that amount of time for that amount of capital. We were interested in getting a rough representation of our original material out there to show people where we were trying to go. An now we’ve gone. And are still going.
Also, you have to understand my take on the distinction between “song” and pure “music.” A song, in my humble opinion (which is obviously debatable) as a songwriter, is a vehicle for a message: the words, and the music reinforces that message on an emotional/gut feeling level. Music, on the other hand, IS the message. It relies wholly on the emotional aspects of the music itself to communicate. Like you said, apples and oranges. If you agree with that premise, then the whole argument about songs “not being new” musically is irrelevant because it’s not about music entirely; there are certain elements that must go into a song to make it a song that conveys a coherent message. But this is an argument that goes waaaay down the rabbit hole. And there are lots of tunnels that one can take while down there, depending on the celestial positions and breakfast ingredients of the day. Maybe, based on my diet and the alignment of the planets, I’ll try making some noiserock someday, I have in the past, but I can face the facts: it just wasn’t that good.
Lastly, that quote, "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." wasn’t Asimov. That was Newton. A giant in his own right. The words themselves go back farther than that, but Newton was the one who turned it into a metaphor for science, technology, human progress, and humility. You just don’t misquote Newton, man. You take lessons from him.
All this aside, thanks for taking the time to listen to our blatherings and ditherings on the musical frontier. Maybe it’s not the bleeding edge, but it certainly is the ragged edge. And thanks for the later comments, even if they were a little harshly put, at least they were what you really think. I can appreciate that. And I hope you find those like minded noizaholics that you’re looking for, if for no other reason than it would temper your anger for the non-fringe. Then we can have a big fuzzy happy hippy trippy getalong session!! YAY.
NOTE: the last spelling there "graiule" is incorrect. I was too drunk to type properly and too lazy to fix it. The proper band name is GRIAULE. (not trying to shout, i just usually put the name in allcaps) Now that i've dispensed with the sub-important stuff...
On to the topics:
Thank-you for the word about my brains.
As for persistence, you are ranked like second or third for the search term "time flies when you're shaving nuns" I'm sure your nearly as excited as i am (i'm first of course) about this, and the flood of traffic it will inevitably bring to yr site (this page). the point is, everytime i get bored (quite often) and search the term, i see your listing again, and wonder what ppl are saying about me. I would hate to miss this kind of fun.
Oh, and regarding the whiskey, i have run out of old crow, i would prefer to drink the good stuff (bushmills) but old crow is what i can afford. either way, i've decided to avoid it for a while anyway, as it seems to turn me into an alcoholic. that day ifigured it would last longer than a six-pack of beer. it did not. whiskey, incidentally is from the gaelic "uisce beatha" (spelling questionable) pronounced "ish-ke baha" (or similar) meaning water of life.
I don't think i care much for trance either. seems to me its just boring techno. or you were not saying you disliked it? just that it's not here. either way i have to agree with that. actually cant say i even really dislike it, i suppose if it were playing in a room i just wouldn't notice it enough to really care.
As for your bio, my initial perusal was cursory. just wanted to get an idea what i was commenting about before i left my little love note.
My attitude. I don't make a lot of happy pretty music. Not that i'm against it, like most noise artists seem to be, just that thats how it usually turns out. Hard to make happy music when you're trying to overdrive cassette decks or linking every distortion pedal you own in an effort to create "the king of all feedback loops" I have made a few rare tracks that i consider "happy" or "pretty" but most of my stuff fits better to words like "harsh" "powerful" "assault" "misanthropic" or "melancholy" "desolate" "wasteland" and of course "impending doom". and while i'm usually a fairly nice person in realworld, i figure its best that my PR campaign fits the music.
And more importantly, i find i get a lot more response out of antagonistic message than i do from the alternative.
i seem to get more activity when i piss someone off than when i go to someone and say, hey, i love what yr doing, y'wanna check out my stuff? ppl get those messages every day, i know i do, and frankly i find it boring, if not irritating after a while. kind of like that email you get from some "russian model" who wants to be your friend, why don't you go visit her webcam?
but when i get that message about "YOU ARE WORTHLESS BLAH BLAH" I'm likely to check it out. not entirely sure why. Jerry Springer syndrome i guess.
Also, i feel that attacking ppl in this way seems to strip away certain pretenses of adoration. Few people really want to stand up in yr face and say "Your masterpiece SUCKS!" especially since they want you to tell everyone how cool THEY are. i get sick of that kind of ass kissing, so i often try to err on the other side.
I like honest appraisals of my art.
I don't believe everything i do is perfect.
When a person gives gushing praise over every thing i create, without deviation, it devalues that praise.
if you cook something and you know you burned it, but all your friends tell you it's wonderful, that really makes you wonder about all the other food you've ever made that they said they loved. if you always get the same response, it means nothing. eternity is hell, no matter good or bad.
So i try to make it easy for ppl to tell me my music sucks, that way, when they do otherwise, it really means something. I've had several fans on soundclick go this route with me. I've also had one or two people tell me i suck. i keep all comments posted good and bad. (As i see you seem to also do)
I do try to give praise when i am impressed, i must admit that some of my antagonistic statements (especially on soundclick noise pages) are ridiculous enough that the artist knew it for a joke. I find myself cursedly compelled to be honest.
As far as the sound quality of yr music:
never give any recording studio yr money until you are sure you'll be happy with the results. Yes i Do think i could do a better job mixing your music. I've got an old tascam 4 track cassette recorder, and i'm quite sure i could mix yr sound far better than what i've heard. and cheaper than $100 bucks (if i wanted to) and faster.
But that's not really fair of me to say. In my art, mixing is half the music.My work involves the entire sound. In fact, when i play live now (just started recently) I have the 4track on stage with me, because how i mix the different textures of sound is integral to my performance. I wouldn't really think of doing a show without my mixing board. The sound engineer at the club basically just sits at his board to make sure i dont spike his meters too much. Its handy, actually; once i've set up my equipment, and made sure everythings plugged in right, my sound check lasts about 4 secs. I just plug my monitor output into their snake, and then turn up my master output volume until the sound guy says its too much.
The point is that half my art IS mixing, yours is not. Your art is in playing your instruments, and crafting songs, and lyrics.Yes, I think i could do a better job mixing your sound than you, but only because i've had a whole lot more practice. And I can appreciate that your emphasis as an artist is more on the songs than on the music. While i've been fiddling with dials, and searching for microtones, feedback, distortion, old tape decks, etc. you've wasted your time thinking up insightful lyrics and worthy messages, or finding catchy rythms or whatever. The nihilistic tendency of my art allows me more time to think about sound production.
Dont blame the lack of money though. from what i heard here you wasted that $100 at the studio. And all these issues of expertise aside, you should still have some ability to determine what sounds good and what sounds horrible. Now that i think about it, i think i'm starting to lean the other way on this one. You really should at least be able to tell for yourself that those vocals get harsh and grating in that one part of the song. and are you telling me all this stuff is like six yrs old? i think i must have misunderstood that part. i hope you mean its only the studio work thats six yrs old. do yourself a favour, stay out of that studio, the live thing you did for that radio station was WAY better quality soundwise, plus i think i kinda like that song was it "alien gleams" or whatever? yeah, just stick with mic-ing your live gigs, mic them all and save the ones that sound good.
anyway. part of the reason i keep coming back is bc i like a good conversation, and you must admit we'd have never had quite this same convo had i not left my original post. I felt my need to leave my little spam here, but i wasn't about to lie and say i loved yr band blah blah. i've already explained why. As for my tone, well, have a sense of humour, and be glad i'm not dating yr little sister.
btw, please do feel free to go comment on my music at the aforementioned link. And i hope some of yr fans might do the same. I do hope you'll all be brutally honest, though, if for some reason you like my noise i won't hold it against you. My favorite comment anyone ever left me is still the guy who said "your music makes me want to eat the corn out of sh**" i assume he meant it as a compliment, though sometimes i wonder.